In pre- and post-scratch sessionsEdit
I don't see how it is complicated that she would be in both, it's the same reason Dad is in both. The scratch only reset the universe up to a point so the two separate sessions could be thought of as a split timeline and the Condesce entered before the split. That's just a simplistic way of saying it because are far as we understand physics in Homestuck split timelines are doomed timelines and the Scratch basically makes it a whole new universe, otherwise regular time travel could be used to jump between sessions which I think it is implied it can't? (Otherwise the Handmaid could've entered the pre-scratch troll session). Basically the more complicated explanation is that when the Condesce entered the session to paraphrase Terezi: all of the history of the universe already happened, so both the pre- and post-scratch timelines already existed existed (already confirmed) when she entered the kids' universe she entered both sessions simultaneously duplicating her between the two timelines.
Also pre-scratch Feferi doesn't make sense since it is implied by Doc Scratch that neither himself, The Felt nor Lrd English was in the pre-scratch session, that and pre-scratch trolls were peaceful making the whole idea absurd. The Light6 23:57, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
- That's not a good analogy, since there are two 'different' Dads, one for each session. This implies the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. All we know for certain is that the Condesce was tapped for a certain job by a semipotent being, and there's lots of evidence that she is post-Scratch Betty Crocker. We don't know that her job involved her living out the lives of two different versions of Betty Crocker in two different Universes, particularly when Betty Crocker did not have a significant role in the pre-Scratch session (that we know of).
- And when you say "it can't be pre-Scratch Feferi because English wasn't there", that doesn't make any sense either. How can it be the Condesce if English wasn't there, or anyone if English wasn't there? English clearly has access to multiple sessions anyway. I just don't follow your logic.
- Anyway, that's all beside the point. I just wanted to indicate that there is no direct evidence to suggest both Betty Crockers are the same person. Feel free to weaken my language a bit, but please respond if you can clarify your POV on this because I'm still a little lost by where you're getting your facts. TricksterWolf 03:29, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
- "when you say "it can't be pre-Scratch Feferi because English wasn't there", that doesn't make any sense either. How can it be the Condesce if English wasn't there, or anyone if English wasn't there?"
- English and Scratch weren't in the pre-scratch troll session, Scratch said so himself. They were however in the post-scratch troll session.
- "English clearly has access to multiple sessions anyway. I just don't follow your logic."
- Yes but from what we've been seen he accesses them after he has been summoned at the end and then travels back in time to exist through the rest of the session. Plus he apparently needs a vessel to be summoned. Also: access to multiple sessions /= access to all sessions. Of course that raises more questions but we know from Hussie's Tumblr posts that Lord English inherited Scratch's First Guardian powers which are limited to the universe a person with them is currently in and can send others (but not themselves) outside the universe and into the furthest ring. Sorry babbling here, was just hypothesising why he could send the Condesce but not himself.
- Also just tackling the issue of two separate Dads vs. split Condesce. I may not have got my view across properly before but: Condesce enters the Kids' session via Trolls' session. Kids' session is scratch and thus so her entry into the Kids' session. New Kids' session starts but because it is the current "one" when the Condesce tries to enter the Kids' session the entry appears in New Kids' session. Basically we don't know how English sent her there and the method may not have been perfect and so when she was sent she was duplicated into both timelines. I guess it's all just speculation until the answers are revealed. The Light6 04:37, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
- So are you saying: Condesce = post-Scratch Betty Crocker, but nobody special = pre-Scratch Betty Crocker? That doesn't match what we know: Nanna discovered that Betty Crocker (pre-Scratch!) was not human, before we received numerous clues that post-Scratch BC = Condesce. There is strong evidence that both are trolls, but if it's the same troll, it would be very complicated because she's not native to B1. In comparison, Dad is native to Universe B1, so he's easily recreated in B2. The Condesce (her genetics, history, timeline origin, etc.) isn't native to B1, so if a scratch happens and it "recreates" her, it would have to recreate her wonky origins in some fashion...so English would have to send her to both B1 and B2 effectively since she has no origin internal to the B universes. You see my point anyway. B1BC is a troll and we don't know who. B2BC is a troll and is most certainly the Condesce. TricksterWolf 05:40, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
- the duplication thing works with the possibility that the 8 babies on r-earth are the very same ones sent by john. just like karkat is the source of the pre-scratch grubs. 22.214.171.124 05:47, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
- "So are you saying: Condesce = post-Scratch Betty Crocker, but nobody special = pre-Scratch Betty Crocker?"
- No, I think you misunderstood me, anon seems to understand though. Basically they are BOTH the Condesce. Basically imagine there is a portal in the troll session leading to the Kids' session (I am not saying there is one I am imagining one to help convey the idea). When the scratch happens it scratches the kids' side of the portal but leaves the troll side intact. If we imagine the scratch is retroactive in a way than that means the portal would have never connected to the pre-scratch one, only post-scratch even though it did connect to the pre-scratch one. Meaning whoever stepped into the portal would be duplicated and one copy sent to their own different timelines. I actually came across this theory right here on the wiki relating to the scratch and it's relation to the Reckoning paradoxically sending the babies back in time and duplicating them so that the ectobiology only happens once in a single session, not both pre- and post- scratch, which is what anon is referring to. Personally I don't go for that being that there are multiple Skaias capable of producing their own portals and arranging events as it sees fit. However I think whatever method English used possibly did produce this effect.
- Basically it is really weird plot shit combined with really weird time shit. The Light6 08:29, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
- the duplication hypothesis only holds because we've seen the items, that were sent with the babies, in r-earth too. Only really crazy time shit could explain another way jane could send those exact items if she does the ecto. we also have the little piece of info that the pre-scratch troll session didn't have any ecto. 126.96.36.199 09:57, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
Now I didn't read this whole thing, but I don't think a duplication theory is necessary. "pipefan413: Years went by. The girl was nearly ready to put her plan into action. But then, just like that, the baroness disappeared. She was never seen or heard from again." She left Pre-Scratch Earth, and somehow made it into the universe of Post-Scratch Earth. Aepokk Venset 07:33, December 30, 2012 (UTC)