Important note: There have been two issues that have repeatedly come up on the page. In order to avoid further complications I'm going to put this note here. Please do NOT:
- add "The Demoness" as a title for The Handmaid. It's not an alternate title, she was merely known as a demon to the Alternians. (there is a more detailed section on this below)
- add anything relating to the spelling of Spinneret as "Spinner8". Neither Mindfang nor Vriska have ever used the spelling "Spinner8" as it makes phonologically not sense. There is no "eight/ate" sound at the end of Spinneret.
BitterLime 07:42, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
8 Letter NamesEdit
Oh wow I am the first one to use the talk page about the Ancestors and I have now idea what I am doing.
Anyway, I noticed all of the Ancestors we know of all have 8 letter last names. Is this similar to how all of the trolls have 6 letter names? I think AH would do something like that. I think it should be mentioned somewhere. Also, Mindfangs journal mentioned a slave. Is it possible she was also an ancestor? How much of this is just wild speculation and me getting ahead of myself? I'll shut up now.18.104.22.168 19:32, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
Good observations. About the names, I'm pretty sure that's what's going on, as for the slave, it might just be something Andrew wrote to develop Mindfang's character.WikiTONY 14:28, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
Organizing the contents of the Article Edit
Should there be a system when it come to the order of the Ancestors in the Article? Alphabetically? Ascending/Descending order of the Hemospectrum? What are your thoughts?22.214.171.124 19:37, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
There probably is something to all the ancestors have 8 letters in there name. what the significance is i don't know. As for the ordering of the ancestors, I think leaving them in the order of their introduction of the storyline is fine for now. If he keeps rolling out the ancestors this page is gonna continue to be hectic. I say wait a few days then reorganize it to keep things less complicated. As for the organization, we could probably just organized it like the how the trolls page is. The trolls page is organized by in order by Hemospectrum. Maybe we can even do the links like how it is on the trolls page. First Lets see if he keeps developing on the ancestors to warrant this kind of attention to this page. Zombie Genocidest 19:55, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
The Slave Edit
I think its pretty obvious that the slave is Kanaya's ancenstor. A female troll that was minipulated by Mindfang into having red feelings for her matches up with what happened in the current trolls events. 126.96.36.199 02:35, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
- The ancestors are figures young trolls are meant to follow in the footsteps of, so her dying a nobody more or less sunk the Kancestor theory. Unless she comes back as a vampire or something. ~Octachorn 03:59, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
- I believe there is more evidence that this slave is important. If you watch closely in the recent flash there is a troll in peasant clothing escaping on a lifeboat as Mindfang's ships are destroyed. 188.8.131.52 12:39, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
- That's Troll Guybrush Treepwood, with T-shaped horns. 184.108.40.206 13:56, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
- I believe there is more evidence that this slave is important. If you watch closely in the recent flash there is a troll in peasant clothing escaping on a lifeboat as Mindfang's ships are destroyed. 220.127.116.11 12:39, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
HA, I WAS RIGHT! (at least my first guess was) http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005959 18.104.22.168 16:32, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
Can we please try and keep it to a minimum in this article. Any ideas that haven't been confirmed yet should be very carefully written so that it's clear the editor is speculating and should provide counter-examples where appropriate. 22.214.171.124 00:40, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
- As I totally agree with this, I must say... Where did the guy that wrote it get the idea that that thing is Karkat's ancestor? No, really... I mean, yeah, it's drawn in bright red, but don't you think it could just be an artistic style?--Chirigami 16:28, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah yeah bright red, crab horns, either way Andrew confirmed himself (on his forum) that it was NOT Karkat's ancestor, and so put black blood on Neophyte's cane, PLUS Karkat now has an ancestor (the sufferer), just so nobody is confused. Forgot to sign-->WikiTONY 14:36, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
Karkat's Ancestor Edit
HHT was confirmed by Andrew not to be Karkat's ancestor.
Original Article Editor: Where exactly does he say that? Because if that's not his ancestor then Hussie's just being incredibly silly with his canonical whippings. It would seem that there's too many traits and foreshadowings that link Karkat to HHT, and to simply say otherwise would be strange.
If that's Karkat's ancestor, then WV is an imp and Dad is Problem Sleuth.
In other words, HHT is not Karkt's ancestor.
ZakTH 22:38, May 2, 2011 (UTC)One of the page edits removes the Aradiancestor and Nepetancestor speculation from Darkleer's section, If the page isn't for speculation, doesn't that render the whole HHT section null?
Not to mention it has black blood. It's not anyone's ancestor.
Lets just cut out the Karkat specualtion parts and put what is left in its own article. HHT deserves to be somewhere, but in ancestors is not where he belongs.DukeLions 05:44, May 5, 2011 (UTC)
The Summoner (Tavros' ancestors) Edit
Should we add the section for him yet? Or should we wait for the wait for his full name?
We do have a picture of him.
We don't have the full name of most of them (The Sufferer, the Grand Highblood) and they already have sections. We have his history and a picture, so why not?DukeLions 05:46, May 5, 2011 (UTC)
His honorable tyranny Edit
I think it's obvious enough now that HHT is not anyone's ancestor. So maybe he needs his own article, or to become a sub-section of this article? I trust the speculation about Karkat and Aradia could stand to be removed too...
I just gave HHT his own page and removed it from the article. He was no one's ancestor, and his connection to aradia was either coincedince, or foreshadowing. (even though it foreshadowed already occured events?). It wasn't ancesteral in any way.ZakTH 01:25, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
The Sufferer Edit
Changed his name from The Sufferer to "Signless" Sufferer, in keeping with the 8-8 motif.
Text not appearing Edit
So, I just went to this page and I noticed that of the recently revealed new ancestors, only the Sufferer is already on the page. I thought that nobody had added them yet, so I decided to do this myself. But when I went to the edit page, all the text (and images) of the Psiioniic, Disciple and Dolorosa were there. Can someone explain this?
126.96.36.199 14:55, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
Demoness is not a proper title for the Handmaid!!!!!! alert alert Edit
I'm not so sure that The Demoness is another title for the Handmaid. The word "demoness" was ony used ever once in description of the Handmaid once, and it wasn't capitalized, even though it seems all but the vaguest titles (e.g. the slave) have been capitalized. This seems ... speculatory. So should Demoness be removed as a name for Aradia's ancestor? 188.8.131.52 19:31, August 16, 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and made the changes because it really isn't her name. People do seem to take things on the comic and run with it, but unless the author decides to make it official, it's still just a fan-title. 184.108.40.206 12:56, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
I made the mistake earlier of trying to fit this all into an edit summary, but I must explain again why the Demoness is not a canonical title for the Handmaid! The page from which the demoness mistakes originates is this: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005969 . "Her recurrance in history would earn her the reputation of a demoness, more feared than even her master, a man though dreadful rarely makes himself seen." As you can see, "demoness" isn't capitaized! Using precedent of title capitalization for ancestors within narration, "The Demoness" cannot be viewed as canonical title. Furthermore, the search tool tells me the word "demoness" has only been used in Homestuck once (uncapitalized), while Handmaid has been used three times, and has been capitalized EACH TIME. The use of "Demoness" as a title for Aradia's ancestor appears to originate from a misreading by members of fandom that spread quickly at the time, and it still exists as an admittedly cool fan title today, but it should not be listed as a real title for her, at least not unless "Demoness" is used as a proper noun later in the story. Edits reverting the the Handmaid's title back and forth are happening 24/7, and it is honestly getting slightly exhausting! Sorry if anybody has been offended by my faithful revertations, this is just a subject which I feel strongly about. Xev154 00:48, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
Handmaid, alive during Hivebent? Edit
On Sollux's, Feferi's and Aradia's pages it mentions that all their ancestors are not dead by the start of Hivebent. However due to time travel complications I am not sure exactly how much this applies to The Handmaid. Starting with the fact she wasn't "born" until after Hivebent, is it fair to say a person who is born after an event wasn't dead by the start of the event if they didn't exist yet? Likewise if said person travels back in time to before the event before travelling back to after the event, they may have been alive before the event but by the time the event started they no longer existed in that period of time (this one could also potentially apply to people born before an event who later manage to skip over it, also if she didn't skip it then this whole topic would be moot). Also we don't know what happened to her after she was released from Lrd English's service, did she return to before Hivebent and later die before it started? Or did she die after being released (or perhaps killed get her out of the way?)? The Light6 15:34, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
She dies after being released from English's service, after she enlists the Condesce into his service to be precise...that is to say the Condesce BitterLime 17:13, December 16, 2011 (UTC). She travelled back in time and influenced troll history in several time periods, while in English's service. So I would count that as being alive before Hivebent. You might want to change the wording on the pages somehow if you feel it's unclear. Perhaps "exist" would be a more appropriate term. I don't know.
Age of the Ancestors Edit
The Condesce is older than all of the Ancestors as she is stated to be have been the empress their entire lives. Her ruling possibly was hundreds or thousands of years before evenfgt Highblood was born. Highblood most likely was older than Mindfang due to his grand position in the court. The Dolorosa is possibly in her forties when she is sold into slavery as she raised the Sufferer at a time when she appeared to be to still be an adult. Mindfang is likely to be around the same age as the Dolorosa because she is speculated to develop a relationship with her, and Reglare is seen as too young to be a real threat to her. Dualscar is Mindfang's one true kismesis and that would seem to imply their relationship reached back into their childhood similar to Vriska and Eridan. Darkleer also seems to be the same age as Mindfang as their relationship revolves around old debts unpaid. The Summoner could belong to either Mindfang's generation or the Sufferer's generation. He is likely inbetween both as he is supposed to mate with Mindfang, while he also is seen flying with Redglare's Dragon Lusus.
When we get to the time of the Sufferer, while some of his followers like the Ψiioniic and Redglare may be a sweep or two older than him, all of these ancestors are likely part of the same generation. The Disciple may be a sweep younger than the Sufferer as her love for the Sufferer is seen as naive until it develops further. They are all likely in their twenties by the way that each is drawn. The Condesce most likely stops the Ψiioniic from aging at the same time she lengthens his life. Though trolls like the Dolorosa and Mindfang don't seem to look much older after many years.
The Handmaid is the youngest Ancestor due to Doc Scratch's meddling. She appears to be no older than 16 or 17.
(This is just a section I was thinking about adding to the main page. Does anyone think it should be added, and are my findings accurate?) Loverdesang 17:48, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
We can't be sure about their exact ages and what "generation" they belong to. For example the Summoner was born long long long after the Sufferer had lived. Further complicating things is that different blooded trolls have different life spans. Aradia and the Handmaid would under normal circumstances have a life expectancy between 25 and 50 years. While Mindfang on the other hand comments on how she will be around long enough to se the sufferer born, and the Condesce seems to be essentially immortal. I think what would be more usefull is a kind of timeline of each Ancestor. Kinda like this (only as a pretty picture):
Condesce: "born" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Dolorosa: ..............."born"------------------------------------sold into slavery-------killed by dualscar
(ignore the full stops.I had to insert them because wikia was being dumb)
Including all ancestors ofcourse.BitterLime 23:07, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
That sounds awesome! We do have the problem of how we would make a timeline, its not as easy as making a table here on wikia. Though, I've made timelines for other things so I would be more than willing to draw us a great timeline. Yet, I would need a near accurate list of what we think came before what and when. I don't want to have to keep editing a timeline because of inaccuracies. Would anyone be at all interested in creating that list? --Loverdesang 05:12, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
- You can make timeline out of a table. The Light6 05:51, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Ancestor Timeline Handmaid Various non-chronological time travelling appearances. H
Born raised by Scratch killed by the Condesce Summoner Born kills Mindfang Revolt fails Psioniic Born follower of Sufferer enlisted as Helmsman Works as the Helmsman dies in the Vast Glub Sufferer Born Preaching Executed Disciple Born follower and lover of Sufferer Spared by Darkleer seclusion and eventual death Dolorosa Born raises Sufferer follower of Sufferer Sold into Slavery Killed by Dualscar Redglare Born Captures Mindfang Hung by lowbloods Mindfang Born Captured and maimed by Redglare Escapes trial killed by Summoner Darkleer Born Exiled ? Highblood Born ? Dualscar Born presumably killed by Highblood Condesce Born Bans all adult trolls Return trip to Alternia Kills Handmaid Enters Kid's universe
Okay... that is badass. We should make this happen. --Loverdesang 10:14, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
I like it too, going to expand the table, we should get it ready here before we paste it on the article. For now I just added everyone in order of the zodiacs. It's a mess (most of the "borns" are still lining up, and I didn't colour stuff grey), because I am not very good at coding this kind of thing. I am hoping TheLight6 will fix this mess with his coding skills. If not I'll make it better later. Oh and feel free to add any information that comes to mind ofcourse. Edit: whelp...that thing is big... BitterLime 11:48, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
OK, massive attempt at cleanup, also don't even ask how much trouble that Hivebent column caused me. The Light6 16:02, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for working your coding magic. I updated a few things. I think the problem is now that the thing will end up being very long. Because we also need to move the events surounding mindfangs trial further down on the timeline. Because of this line "He owed me for the sweeps of protection I provided after his 8razen defiance of the High8loods". So, the assasination of the Dolorosa, Mindfang's trial etc happen several sweeps after the events they are currently lined up with. And the summoers rebelion wont be for another few centuries, he himself probably not being born for another few sweeps. Also messed up the hivebent column. Sorry D:. Maybe we should fix the hivebent column after we inserted all the information and made sure everything is in the right place.BitterLime 19:52, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Urgh getting the hang of this coding...does not look that complicated afterall.. but it keeps doing things I don't want, nor expect it to do.:p Managed to fix the Hivebent Column at least.BitterLime 23:06, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
- You know you figuring out how to fix it ended up being conflicting edit with my fix? :P But anyhow, glad you are getting the hang of it. The Light6 23:14, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Oops. SOrry D:. I hate conflicting edits. If it's any consolidation that post of yours just conflicted with my new edit on the table. :p I fixed some minor things and added each troll's colour as their background. Maybe the names should be white now? Or do you guys think it's too colourful now and we should undo this?BitterLime 23:30, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about that, also yeah their names probably need to be brighter now to contrast their colours, or the colours can be a bit inaccurate and be brighter. Either way. The Light6 23:45, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
Okay some changes again. There is one thing I really would like to do...but can't. I know that there is a code that can make it so that one colour fades into another. I think that would be great for the cases where we don't know the exact time of birth or death, the background could fade from white to grey. Do you know the coding for that TheLight6? Also, should we put this on the site as somethign that anyone can edit? Or as a seperate page that we'll protect and then insert into the page. Because The coding is super easy to mess up, on the other hand I think atm it would benefit from being editable by anyone, because I am sure some people know some details on the ancestors timeline that I fogot to include. BitterLime 15:08, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
i think we should keep it safe and submit any corrections here 220.127.116.11 15:17, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, it's easily breakable should probably be kept safe. Also I can't say that I know or for that matter have ever seen colour coding that works in fading, though it would be useful of unknown deaths. Also I googled it and it is unclear whether it can be done with coding alone and may in fact require using a picture as the background of any such cells. The Light6 15:49, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
The Ancestor's Session Edit
Didn't Doc Scatch say something about the ancestors playing Sgurb, failing, and activating The Scratch?
If so, is there an Ancestor's Session fan adventure floating around on the internet somewhere? 18.104.22.168 17:32, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
What is it going to take to give the Condesce her own page already? Edit
She IS the person who usurped the Black Queen, latest update explicitly says so. And, I mean, yeah, she's Betty Crocker. If you guys wanna be all coy about it go nuts, just keep the whole "most obvious candidate but technically not confirmed" thing going, but either way she's clearly shaping up to be a character of far more major importance than the other ancestors and she's still stuck on this page.
22.214.171.124 06:33, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
- and since she's currently the main antagonist of the series, her article is bound to get longer and longer. giving her a own page seems like the logical thing to do and will be happening sooner or later. her article is right now larger than the black and white king's ones combined! 126.96.36.199 15:35, February 23, 2012 (UTC)banana
This is for everyone I might add. Soon. We need to wait untill she gets fully introduced. Also I wouldn't say the Black and the White King, moreover the SBAHJifier. Maximu5awes0meu5 22:03, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
- On the subject of the condesce, Jake once very recently referred to her as a spinster. That fits the eight-letter rule, should it be considered a legitimate title? 188.8.131.52 01:24, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
So many ancestors… Edit
…So little time. Maybe someone should break up this page into twelve different pages, since there are twelve ancestors and several of them have been fleshed out. I'd like to see this broken up so maybe there can be longer explanations for those requiring one-- it's kind of hard to squeeze a life story (i.e. the Sufferer's) into a few paragraphs without it seeming too long for a page with so many sections. Please consider this!
I'd say no since all of them except the condcse aren't really main charecters. They were spoken about in few pages and better off here. So unless Hussies has a whole act on them or does something with them, no. Chezrush 12:05, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
Why not? all the kids ancestors have his own pages and they were spoken about in few pages too. Other characters who appeared rapidly and have his own pages: Guy Fieri, Jay and Dope, and the worst of all, Colonel Sassacre. Merekin 16:41, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
Most of the troll ancestors literally had been mentioned in few pages, and unlike Dirk and Roxys ancestor, we know a good amount of information. Though the Handmaid is come up to mind. She possibly might be in the post scratch session as well. I guess we can let the Handmaid slide. But can we please stop saying "please consider this?" Chezrush 00:05, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
@Merekin Thanks for the support. @Chezrush Apologies for starting a trend about the "consider this" part… didn't know what I was getting into. But we know the life stories of several of the trolls, i.e. Mindfang and the Sufferer. Even if we were to just give the biographies and not include speculation or post-scratch versions, assuming that's what the dead trolls turn out to be, they'd still contain as much content as several other characters' pages, like Merekin said. I won't fight any longer if anyone says "no" again; I just think it'd be a little more… convenient?
Man I forgot about Mindfang! Here's what I'm thinking: so how about once the pre scratch versions come out, we make a page of their ancestor like we did with the Condece, though we can just make them them now and be done with it.. --Chezrush 23:40, May 7, 2012 (UTC)
I don't really see how it would be more convenient. The content box at the beginning of the article can be used to switch to any ancestor on the page quickly. Alot of the ancestors don't have enough info to have their own page, and in contrast to other characters such as guy fieri, the ICP and Sassacre, the ancestors can actually share a page in a meaningful way. (In other words other characters with little information on them can't be merged with other character articles well). Pre-scretch selves get their own pages, so that new info goes on there. There is also no indication that anything more will be revealed about the ancestors any time soon and it's not like this page is overly crowded. The only exceptions that could be made are perhaps the Sufferer and Mindfang, because those two are more fleshed out and the two central characters of the stories we hear about the ancestors (i.e. scratch's narrative about the Sufferer and Mindfang's journal)bitterLime 06:40, May 8, 2012 (UTC)
Theory: The Ancestors aren't the pre-scratch trolls. Edit
- The Pre-scratch trolls negotiated with Echidna for her's needles. She gave it to them, but in return they would change places with the post-scratch trolls.
- Rose said that the only thing Skaia can do to change something after a scratch is send the players and thei guardians/ancestors in different order.
- The normal thing that was supposed to happen in the troll scratch was the pre-trolls becoming the ancestors of the new players, theirs ancestors. But with the Echidna's request they ended up being their own ancestors, as well as the post trolls.
This explain The troll definition for Ancestors, who are said to have the closest genetic match with their descendant. Explain why all the twelve ancestors looks like grow up versions of the trolls, and too why the young Handmaid is EXACTLY equal Aradia. This theory can explain too Aranea being not only Vriska's ancestors, but Terezi's too (and maybe kanaya's too). The pre-trolls probably mixed the genes to create the post-scratch trolls.
PS.: All the ancestors are nicknamed by your "pre-scratch" version's role, like Roxy's mom being a seer and Jake's grandma being a witch, but, curiously, The Condesce is called witch, like Feferi, and not Thief, like Meenah.
Merekin 17:28, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
Re: Comments made in the edit summaryEdit
Another interesting Biblical reference would be how the Scratch is a transformation from an Eden (the A1 session) to the sinful Earth (the A2 session), through the bargain with Echidna, represented by the devil. It would then seal the role of The Signless as a prophet (Hussie's Formspring) Another interesting Biblical reference would be how the Scratch is a transformation from an Eden (the A1 session) to the sinful Earth (the A2 session), through the bargain with Echidna, represented by the serpent from the story of Adam and Eve. It would then seal the role of The Signless as a prophet (Hussie's Formspring)
I removed the above addition to the article because it was not even close but someone undid my removal, all a Scratch does is makes the species it Scratches tougher, to better prepare them for the hardships that are found in the game, it does not fill the world with sin, even though the Alpha Trolls were so seemingly mean and cold, that was just because they were built to be tough. The game is full of murdering imps and death and you need to be able to handle that in order to survive. The Beta Humans were especially not sinful, I saw pretty much no difference between the Beta Humans and the Alpha Humans.
GHB doesn't fit the scheme with or without "The Grand" Edit
Just has to delete this note from the segment on GHB about him having an eight letter title without "The Grand" at the front of it. For that editor, and any future editors, please note:
H-I-G-H (4) + B-L-O-O-D (5) = 9 letters.
Before editing, count 'em on your fingers if you gotta.184.108.40.206 19:24, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
- You actually misread what it said, it wasn't saying GBH's title without "The Grand" but taking that as a title showed 8 letters.
- T-H-E (3) + G+R+A+N+D (5) = 8 letters.
- That being said, it was really an idea that shouldn't have been on the page because that makes no sense and just sounds horrible. - The Light6 (talk) 21:39, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Should we include Roxy's Mom and Dirk's Bro into this page? They pretty much are their ancestors society wise (someone you look up to as a role model that lived long before you and is genetically extremely similar to you), partially because human society has been forced to become more troll like after the take over of Crockercorp.bitterLime 08:57, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
- I am going to have to say no, but also yes. Basically with how the trolls view ancestors as sort of mystical ancients, which is a bad way of describing it but the best wording I can think of, while Dirk and Roxy view adult!Dave and adult!Rose as the close family members they never knew. Of course they do still provide the same function, providing inspiration for the younger ones who take their place. That being said, I think it is worth mentioning that on B2 Earth that the Condesce did start a system to replicate this amongst humans with a mention of how Roxy's Mom and Dirk's Bro in a way fulfil this enforced system. Actually after writing this, did you mean to include them as part of an explanation of what happened in the future of B2? eg. What I was saying? Because yes. If you meant give them their own sections like the Sufferer or the Condesce, than no. - The Light6 (talk) 09:33, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
- I just meant including them in some way or another, not sure how it would be handled. I wasn't thinking of including them into the list of the troll ancestors more about just mentioning them somehow in the article, so what you said makes sense to me.bitterLime 12:50, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
A Stunning Revel8on Edit
This just hit me and I'm not so sure I like it. Even though it's probably just artistic style, do we have any proof that adult troll's skin isn't black?
220.127.116.11 17:37, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
Karkat's movie posters and other pictures of adult trolls. For example bitterLime 17:59, November 3, 2012 (UTC). I am not sure if we ever see grey skin on the actual adult trolls we see (the Ancestors). Still I am pretty certain the Ancestor's (sometimes) absent facial features and black skin are for dramatic effect only.